Here's how the people who broke up their marriages, determined to change the world, spent the last ten years - and take note of how the word "we" is used:Remember the '90s, when we all thought we were crazy? Everyone ran out and got a shrink (New Yorkers got analysts — not just for Woody Allen anymore!). Couples' therapy became a widely chosen ritualistic precursor to divorce, aimed at clarifying for each party exactly when and how their spouse became reprehensible. The middle-aged departed on healing retreats en masse to learn about centering and recovering their inner child. The most fragile souls wound up in stuffy hotel conference rooms under the banner of Werner Erhard's Forum, where an authoritarian patriarch urged them to simply sweep away their "rackets" like so many dust bunnies.And here they are now - their inner child still insisting on some ethically-challenged, organic, recyclable, utopia of nonsense - hoping someone will feel sorry for them after all the trouble they've caused, the money they've thrown away ("I was a shopaholic") and the lives they've destroyed:
Beating the homeless guy to "the good stuff"?
As Bob Dylan asked, how does it feeeeeel?
The best part about this story is that the lessons from this kind of hardship will be COMPELTELY lost on these folks. The fact that voting for New-Agey leftist-fascist morons leads, inevitably, to economic collapse, will never occur to the cultist. Because voting for them "feels" so right. How could it not produce wonderful benefits? duh. If it doesn't make them feel good, why should they do it?
ReplyDeleteThey'll elect Jerry Brown as their governor and he'll fail a second time - maybe even less miserably than the first time. But the mere fact that he's on the ballot should be a HUGE red flag about the complete breakdown of the political and electoral system in California. The only saving grace is that this time, there will be no dates with Linda Ronstadt to show for it. http://www.ronstadt-linda.com/newsweek79.htm
Embrace the future. It'll suck worse than the present.
Hey, not sure you guys realize this, but "In Treatment" is an HBO drama - like "The Sopranos," or "True Blood."
ReplyDeleteIt's fiction - for entertainment - not real.
Your comment about Werner and Landmark is almost totally inaccurate. As far as fragile people attending the Forum is concerned, only those (like every member of my family) who are sincerely interested in enhancing the quality of their life, and moving to a new level usually have the courage to take the Forum. There is no stuffy hotel conference room. All trainings are conducted in spacious ballrooms.
ReplyDeleteThere are no authoritarian patriarchs. Many Forum leaders are women. Whatever the gender of the trainer, the place they are coming from is love and support and yes that doesn't always mean blowing in your ear and patting you on the rear end.
They are not urged to sweep away any rackets. In fact they are not urged to do anything except experience the truth of their life and how it has affected their own health and well-being and that of those around them. It is obvious from the remarks in your article, that whoever wrote them has never taken The Forum and knows little about it.
Sure - that's why "Werner" has been sued repeatedly, his own daughters have accused him of molestation and mental cruelty, and - after decades in business - you can't point to any striking differences in the quality of life in America that can be traced to "Werner's" influence, right?
ReplyDeleteSucker.
Also, how did that I'm-going-to-end-world-hunger bullshit he started in the 70s work out?
Sucker.
Really, is there anything you can say - or, more importantly, prove - except you're gullible?
Hey, not sure you guys realize this, but "In Treatment" is an HBO drama - like "The Sopranos," or "True Blood."
ReplyDeleteIt's fiction - for entertainment - not real.
Oh, we know but, as the writer made clear, it's based on what losers were doing in real life.
Mr. Crack:
ReplyDeleteThere have been several lawsuits over the years but to my knowledge, none has ever resulted in a verdict against Est or Landmark (I am familiar with US cases only).
1n 1992 Stephanie Ney sued Landmark saying that three days after attending the Forum, she suffered a breakdown. The trial dismissed the case with a summary judgment.
In 1997, Tracy Neff sued Landmark saying that Landmark staff members had sexually assaulted her. In 1998, Landmark Educated introduced a comprehensive anti-harassment and anti-discrimination policy and the parties reached a settlement agreement.
In 2002, Jason Weed experienced a psychotic episode and killed a letter carrier after taking the Forum. The court ruled that the episode in fact had nothing to with the self-help seminar and awarded a judgment in favor Landmark.
I believe also that in 1988, one of Werner's trainers Charlene Affremow sued Werner. In this case a settlement was reached and Charlene withdrew her lawsuit (she is now back leading the Forum and was my son's wife trainer last month in the Advanced course)
Compare these lawsuits to the hundreds, perhaps thousands of lawsuits filed in the same time period against psychiatrists.
As far as the accusations of Werner's daughters on 60 Minutes, this was revealed to be as a result of lucrative promises from Scientology to defame her father.
One of Werner's daughters took legal action against John Hubner and the San Jose Mercury News for the way she was manipulated while in drug therapy with promises of great wealth if she would destroy her father's reputation.
I cannot speak to the matter of the mental health of most Americans, since most Americans have not taken any of Werner's programs. I can only speak to the contribution that was made to me and the people I care about.
While your list is hardly comprehensive - which doesn't surprise me considering you say your wife's involved in it - and doesn't include lots of stuff I've covered over the years, I'll be generous and say, "Fine."
ReplyDeleteNow, about the miraculous changes that est and Landmark have promised to society over the years? Has hunger been eliminated? Are there a bevy of est/Landmark millionaires I don't know about? Where are the army of "enlightened" folks?
Considering how long it's been around, and the large numbers of people (millions?) who have been through it, I find it hard to believe we're in any kind of crisis (economic, political - any kind) considering it's claims. Prove me wrong.
And do me a favor:
Post some links so we can verify your claims.
No links - or you disappearing now that you've been openly challenged - will be taken as your concession that you've been used as a fool by your pal, "Werner".
Pardon:
ReplyDeleteYour son's wife. Jesus, you really must be troubled to feed your kids to the wolves like that.
My post must have gotten lost, so I'll send some of it again.
ReplyDeleteHere are some links you asked for:
Lawsuits against Landmark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landmark_Education_litigation
Independent studies
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/landmark_forum_independent_research.jsp
Grads making a difference
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/landmark_forum_grads_featured_in_the_news.jsp
My son’s wife is an adult who lives 1500 miles from me and did not consult me when she made her choice to do the Forum and the Advanced Course.
Here is another example how programs of Werner Erhard have made an impact on society.
ReplyDeletehttp://wernererhardfoundation.blogspot.com/
Howard,
ReplyDeleteYou do understand that the point is to get away from cults, don't you - not to join them? Why you would keep crying "you haven't tried it!" when the point is NOT TO is amazing. They've really got you.
And you do understand that if what "Werner" said was true, the world would already be a very different place by now, right? For instance, I wouldn't be questioning the bullshit you've gotten from Werner because, after all these years, the proof of what you say would be self-evident - but it ain't. As a matter of fact, after all your time and money, you've got nothing to show but your own claims to being improved - the world is only remarkably different in that I now know how gullible you are.
And you do understand your daughter-in-law's adulthood is no excuse for her (or your) unquestioning mind - regarding the negatives associated with cultism and/or large group awareness training - don't you? Adults are stupid, too, y'know?
Or are you just a cheerleader no matter what? It's not like the rest of us haven't had time to learn about est and Landmark - and your insistence, we should try it to find out, is straight out of cult training 101: no thanks, buddy.
Your list of successes - culled from ests own website and nothing independent - is weak as well. This org said they were going to change people's lives - and the world - where is it, except in their own heads?
The truth won't stay hidden forever, Howard.
Thanks for sharing your views about est with me. Est was not a cult and neither is Landmark. Attempts in lawsuits to label Landmark Education a cult have been dismissed (if you look at the same link I sent you on litigation).
ReplyDeleteIt is your choice whether to do the Landmark Forum or not. However, your ideas about it are strictly ideologically based since you have zero experience with it.
As a film reviewer, I would hardly think a review of mine of a movie I hadn't seen would carry much weight.
I first took est in 1974 so the personal benefits I have received from est has lasted a lifetime. You can say all you want about Werner but the truth lies in the quality of my life. Werner never made claims about changing the world but only to create the space for the world to work for everyone.
The studies reported about Graduate satisfaction reported on the Landmark website are all independent studies, not connected with the organization and can be verified.
Then, please - along with how much you've paid, monetarily, to receive these "personal benefits" - enlighten me to all I've supposedly missed and you've (supposedly) gained.
ReplyDeleteAnd, though you claim I know nothing because I won't be indoctrinated in anything but freedom - I can point to lots of things (like the exposure of the Cafe' Gratitude scam) that you probably don't entertain because it goes against what you say about it. (I do find it fascinating that all your proof comes from est or Landmark, like they're not biased or I should accept their word as anything but.)
Last but not least, as I've said, if est/Landmark was so great - after being in business since 1954 - it's benefits should be obvious and not need anyone to still have to prove a thing. I say it's a scam and, like most who get conned, you just can't admit it:
Prove me wrong.
The benefits of est and Landmark are obvious to me and I do not feel the need to convince you of it nor share the intimate details of my life so that you can dismiss it, ignore it, twist it, or make fun of it. I am not trying to enroll you in it because you're mind is closed.
ReplyDeleteWerner has said:
“We can choose to make our love for the world be what our lives are really about."
“Each of us now has the opportunity, the privilege, to make a difference in creating a world that works for all of us."
It's would be really great if you could get off your position and see that there are other valid experiences that are available to you.
Since you appear to be stuck in your position, however, there is no point in continuing this discussion, I wish you well and thanks for engaging.
The benefits of est and Landmark are obvious to me and I do not feel the need to convince you of it nor share the intimate details of my life so that you can dismiss it, ignore it, twist it, or make fun of it. I am not trying to enroll you in it because you're mind is closed.
ReplyDeleteMy mind's not closed - it's very open - you just won't play by the rules that govern adult behavior and, instead, insist I be a chump like you and go along with anyone childishly saying "believe me".
"Werner has said,..." nothing about stealing his "tech" from L. Ron Hubbard - how's stealing figure into "what our lives are really about"? And why should I listen to anyone, like you, who willingly follows someone so unethical?
And I love this:
“Each of us now has the opportunity, the privilege, to make a difference in creating a world that works for all of us."
I'm telling you, just as others have said now for decades, what est and Landmark are doing doesn't "work for all of us" but does that stop you? No. So you and Werner and the rest of the cultists are liars. Your words mean nothing but as a tool for further recruitment. You're no longer even a thinking human being.
Since you appear to be stuck in your position, however, there is no point in continuing this discussion, I wish you well and thanks for engaging.
Yea, since you can't recruit me, your work here is done - as though you getting out of the cult isn't also an option. No, the only option is joining Werner. Just like the only option was joining Hitler.
Werner/Hitler.
They both have very nice rings to them - and so much in common.